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	<title>Comments on: Adjectives as Idols</title>
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	<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/</link>
	<description>a site of personal confession</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: James Kelley</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>James Kelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Here's a quotation from St. Nicholas Kavasilas to help V. understand how 'God is love', but not in an adjectival sense:

"As God's loving-kindness is ineffable and His love for our race surpasses human speech and reason, so too it belongs to the divine goodness alone, for this is 'the peace of God which passes all understanding' (Phil. 4:7).  Likewise it follows that His union with those whom He loves surpasses every union of which one might conceive, and cannot be compared with any model."  

The Life in Christ, trans. C.J. deCatanzaro (Crestwood 1974) 45-46.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a quotation from St. Nicholas Kavasilas to help V. understand how &#8216;God is love&#8217;, but not in an adjectival sense:</p>
<p>&#8220;As God&#8217;s loving-kindness is ineffable and His love for our race surpasses human speech and reason, so too it belongs to the divine goodness alone, for this is &#8216;the peace of God which passes all understanding&#8217; (Phil. 4:7).  Likewise it follows that His union with those whom He loves surpasses every union of which one might conceive, and cannot be compared with any model.&#8221;  </p>
<p>The Life in Christ, trans. C.J. deCatanzaro (Crestwood 1974) 45-46.</p>
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		<title>By: []</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator>[]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, I recommend Lossky's book "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church". It makes these things quite clear. Some of your question is not answerable, given Orthodox belief. You're talking of natures of descriptives and creating a category of unlimitedness. The question really can't be answered, but no, that's not what we believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I recommend Lossky&#8217;s book &#8220;The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church&#8221;. It makes these things quite clear. Some of your question is not answerable, given Orthodox belief. You&#8217;re talking of natures of descriptives and creating a category of unlimitedness. The question really can&#8217;t be answered, but no, that&#8217;s not what we believe.</p>
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		<title>By: V &#38; E</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>V &#38; E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/?p=173#comment-220</guid>
		<description>To sum, any descriptives of God would be that which is by nature unlimited (holiness, for example) - His transcendence - or that which is expressive of action (love, for example) - His energies.

Fair summary?

- V.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To sum, any descriptives of God would be that which is by nature unlimited (holiness, for example) - His transcendence - or that which is expressive of action (love, for example) - His energies.</p>
<p>Fair summary?</p>
<p>- V.</p>
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		<title>By: []</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-217</link>
		<dc:creator>[]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don't think there's more to respond to this than my response to Steve. Orthodoxy is in the distinctions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s more to respond to this than my response to Steve. Orthodoxy is in the distinctions.</p>
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		<title>By: V &#38; E</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-214</link>
		<dc:creator>V &#38; E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 16:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/?p=173#comment-214</guid>
		<description>Does not St. John say that "God is love"?

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God.  And every one that loves is born of God and knows God.  He that loves not, knows not God, ***for God is love.***  By this was the love of God manifested towards us, because God has sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we may live through him.  In this is love - not as though we have loved God, but because He has first loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.  Beloved, if God has so loved us, we also ought to love one another.  No one has seen God at any time.  If we love one another, God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Expresses the apophatic nicely ("no one has seen God at any time"), while also making the statement that God is love.

Thoughts?

- V.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does not St. John say that &#8220;God is love&#8221;?</p>
<p>&#8220;Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God.  And every one that loves is born of God and knows God.  He that loves not, knows not God, ***for God is love.***  By this was the love of God manifested towards us, because God has sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we may live through him.  In this is love - not as though we have loved God, but because He has first loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.  Beloved, if God has so loved us, we also ought to love one another.  No one has seen God at any time.  If we love one another, God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us.&#8221;</p>
<p>Expresses the apophatic nicely (&#8221;no one has seen God at any time&#8221;), while also making the statement that God is love.</p>
<p>Thoughts?</p>
<p>- V.</p>
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		<title>By: []</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-211</link>
		<dc:creator>[]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/?p=173#comment-211</guid>
		<description>Yep. Our hymnography ascribes things to God, as does our scriptures:

"God is a jealous God."
"...Lest he become angry..."
etc.

We do not understand these, however, in the sense that English adjectives convey to the heterodox mind. We consider them not attributes of a person, nor conditions of a person, but instead actions or, if you will, energies of a person. For us, as the Muslims say "God be merciful" we may say "Lord have mercy". The energies of God are God uncreate, and we do not consider these to be analogous to our own condition: "My ways are not your ways."

So there are a handful of ways that adjectives are used:
* One might say God is loving. But more correctly, God loves us. In a particular place and time, or for all eternity particular persons. But never in general.
* One might say God is a jealous God. And there we mean not an attribute of God, but an energy, if you will.
* We might say God be merciful to me a sinner, where we more often say "have mercy on me" - we are not asking God to change his quality but to change his activity toward us; this is an important distinction.
* When we say God is holy. Remember, we also say that none is holy except God. So we are definitely not making an analogy - how can we? Instead, we are stating that what God is, is incomparable, beyond being beyond comparison, unattainable by anything else, and still we remember that we refer to God's energies, and not God's essence, which is indescribable. To say that God is holy is like saying that God is the Lord. God is what we can never be, except by deification - by becoming God. And that is a union in the Energies of God, not the essence.

I'm willing to be corrected, of course, if I've erred, but I think I haven't.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep. Our hymnography ascribes things to God, as does our scriptures:</p>
<p>&#8220;God is a jealous God.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;&#8230;Lest he become angry&#8230;&#8221;<br />
etc.</p>
<p>We do not understand these, however, in the sense that English adjectives convey to the heterodox mind. We consider them not attributes of a person, nor conditions of a person, but instead actions or, if you will, energies of a person. For us, as the Muslims say &#8220;God be merciful&#8221; we may say &#8220;Lord have mercy&#8221;. The energies of God are God uncreate, and we do not consider these to be analogous to our own condition: &#8220;My ways are not your ways.&#8221;</p>
<p>So there are a handful of ways that adjectives are used:<br />
* One might say God is loving. But more correctly, God loves us. In a particular place and time, or for all eternity particular persons. But never in general.<br />
* One might say God is a jealous God. And there we mean not an attribute of God, but an energy, if you will.<br />
* We might say God be merciful to me a sinner, where we more often say &#8220;have mercy on me&#8221; - we are not asking God to change his quality but to change his activity toward us; this is an important distinction.<br />
* When we say God is holy. Remember, we also say that none is holy except God. So we are definitely not making an analogy - how can we? Instead, we are stating that what God is, is incomparable, beyond being beyond comparison, unattainable by anything else, and still we remember that we refer to God&#8217;s energies, and not God&#8217;s essence, which is indescribable. To say that God is holy is like saying that God is the Lord. God is what we can never be, except by deification - by becoming God. And that is a union in the Energies of God, not the essence.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m willing to be corrected, of course, if I&#8217;ve erred, but I think I haven&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 06:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/?p=173#comment-210</guid>
		<description>Holy God
Holy Might
Holy Immortal
have mercy on us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holy God<br />
Holy Might<br />
Holy Immortal<br />
have mercy on us.</p>
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		<title>By: []</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-186</link>
		<dc:creator>[]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 13:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rhetorically, if he wants you to move in a certain direction, he may link them, but I can tell you he doesn't see them as the same thing. In fact, while attributes are a part of Western-Augustinian theology, the notion is foreign to Orthodox theology, and that's a point he makes repeatedly in his other books, culminating in &lt;a href="http://www.filioque.com" rel="nofollow"&gt;God, History, and Dialectic&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rhetorically, if he wants you to move in a certain direction, he may link them, but I can tell you he doesn&#8217;t see them as the same thing. In fact, while attributes are a part of Western-Augustinian theology, the notion is foreign to Orthodox theology, and that&#8217;s a point he makes repeatedly in his other books, culminating in <a href="http://www.filioque.com" rel="nofollow">God, History, and Dialectic</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew H.</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-185</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 04:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I read Farrell's appendix to his Free Choice, and in that he seems to use 'attributes' and 'energies' interchangeably. I was under the impression that they are not the same.

Was I reading him correctly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read Farrell&#8217;s appendix to his Free Choice, and in that he seems to use &#8216;attributes&#8217; and &#8216;energies&#8217; interchangeably. I was under the impression that they are not the same.</p>
<p>Was I reading him correctly?</p>
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		<title>By: []</title>
		<link>http://orthopraxis.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/adjectives-as-idols/#comment-180</link>
		<dc:creator>[]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry, no. You could ask Daniel at the Energetic Procession site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, no. You could ask Daniel at the Energetic Procession site.</p>
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